SPONSORS
ICRBE
Custom Rod Symbol
Common Cents System
American Grips Piscari
American Tackle
Anglers Rsrc - Fuji
BackCreek Custom Rods
BatsonRainshadowALPS
CRB
Cork4Us
HNL Rod Blanks–CTS
Century Rods
Custom Fly Grips LLC
Decal Connection
EPSON Decal Printers
Flex Coat Co.
Get Bit Outdoors
HFF Custom Rods
HYDRA
Mudhole Custom Tackle
MHX Rod Blanks
North Fork Composites
Palmarius Rods
REC Components
RodBuilders Warehouse
RodHouse France
RodMaker Magazine
Schneiders Rod Shop
SeaGuide Corp.
Stryker Rods & Blanks
TackleZoom
The Rod Room
The FlySpoke Shop
USAmadefactory.com
Utmost Enterprises
VooDoo Rods
If you want to learn more, please visit our website Mf Rod.
Newbie Questions
Posted by:
William Minard
(---.client.mchsi.com)
Date: May 24, 09:10PM
Hello everyone, been reading many post on here and going try my first build.
I fish a mid size river for walleye and smallmouth, I am usually pitching 1/16 th - 1/4 oz jigs working them along the bottom in the current. Feel is very important to say the least.
I currently been fishing a 6' Fenwick ML action MF power. I wanted something little longer and little faster action so I bought a St Croix 7'6" ML/XF SC3 blank and wanted to build my first rod.
Ready to begin buying my components. Plan right now is to go with Pac bay Minima 4 (16 ) (08) (05) (04 runners) guides using the NGC system and Prowrap colorfast size A thread.
Still trying to decide on the handle area.
Questions
How does that setup sound for a light and sensitive rod?
Will (04) size runners be ok in winter months, will they freeze up any more then normal guides?
Will the 27X or K concept gps work better for this rod then NGC? I use 6 or 8# mono and sometimes a light braid.
For a beginner would high or low build guide finish be better? Want as light as I can, function over looks but don't want it to ugly beings it's a first.
On the handle what does the 16 mm or 17 mm measure? O.D. I am thinking.
Any suggestions on balance of a 7'6" rod? I like tip light rods and thinking of cutting some off the butt of the blank to help with feel. St. Croix warranty said it was ok if I did.
O.K. couple more to bother you with. Been reading about these carbon fiber handles being made and have a couple questions there.
Does the carbon fiber make that big of difference in feel over cork?
What weight sleeve do you guys use?
Thought about just using a carbon fiber front grip and the back with cork, I fish with 2 fingers on the blank.
Thanks guys and been enjoying the info and help you all share on this forum. Going to take my time and take it slow but looking forward to that first cast :).
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Joe Vanfossen
(---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: May 24, 09:47PM
Sounds like a nice first build. Mine was an RX8+S822.5 from Batson 6'10" M Extra Fast built for a casting reel, throwing 1/8-1/4 oz jigs for bass and walleye. It was and still is my ideal rod for the task. Now you need to look for a similar blank in their Eternity^2 line. 7'6" is a little long for my taste, but lots of people like the longer rods on moving water to help keep more line off the water, and that blank will likely server you well.
The setup sounds just fine.
The 4mm minima guides have an opening similar to a lot of 6mm ceramic guides, so it'll be a wash in ice up conditions.
With one of the limper 6-8 lb monos, either NGC 27x or Fuji GPS will serve you well. I tend to use the 27x method personally for spinning rods, but both systems are very good. For what it's worth, the reason for my choice of 27x is more aesthetic than performance based. Even after working with the taller frame match guides from time to time, I like looks and aesthetics of a 27x setup with Y frames best.
In regard to finish, it's personal preference, and there is going to be a learning curve, regardless of your choice. Make a choice and make an effort to find a process that works for you.
For the reel seat, I would recommend an 18mm seat. 16mm is way too small for most people to grip comfortably. 17mm seats are the standard on factory rods, but still a bit small. While I prefer a split TN handle with the reel wrapped on with 1.05" OD, the 18mm seat is very similar in OD, and my choice when I need a seat. My hands are on the smaller size of the spectrum for a man's hands, so some may prefer a 20mm or even 22mm seat. Before I stepped up a size in reel seat, I would have a pain shooting up my arm anytime I set the hook on a spinning rod with a 17mm seat. Those pains vanished when I went to a slightly larger seat.
I love the carbon fiber grips personally. Dumping the reel seat in favor of the TN handle will have a greater impact on the feel than choosing between cork or woven graphite. The woven graphite whether a pre-made tube or sleeved grip provides a much better base for wrapping the reel on with thread and coating with finish.
I would have to double check, but I think my sleeves are 1.25" OD standard weight. I might be able to get by with 1", but my grip core ODs are right there at the outside edge for going down a size.
On my personal rods where I use pre-made tubes for the TN handle, I used a black EVA butt grip, and it works well.
Enjoy your first build. It will likely lead to many more!
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Donald R Campbell
(---.lsanca.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 25, 11:13AM
Joe,
That is a great reply to his questions.
Don Campbell
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Chad Huderle
(67.50.131.---)
Date: May 25, 11:48AM
Welcome to rod building William. Based upon your detailed questions it's obvious you're done a considerable amount of research prior to your upcoming first build.
However. the biggest thing I would recommend before you get started on that build is to take an old rod and practice. Wrap some guides, do some trim bands, find a way to apply epoxy that works for you, work on static testing to place your running guides. Everybody seems to do something different and there are lots of ways to get to the same end. Jump into that first build after you are comfortable with the methods that you find work for you. You'll be glad you did.
Thanks,
Chad Huderle
Huderle Custom Rods
Prior Lake, MN
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Garry Thornton
(---.relaybm.bell.ca)
Date: May 25, 01:29PM
I would agree with Joe right up to the reel seat.
I like both the 16 Aero and the 17 VSS reel seats. The 16 VSS is too small for my big hands.
Both seats are very comfortable to use. Mine are always positioned to be down locking so my hand is cushioned and never on the threads.
The Fugi VSS needs a special grip, you can order either cork or EVA. It's a little more fiddly to fit to the rod, but is very sleek looking.
I like split grips on light rods, mostly because it gives me space for a Tiger Wrap.
A couple of small pieces of cork or EVA might not be as light a handle as you can make, but in practice it's as light as anything else.
Personally, I like a low build finish and expect to do two coats.
Since there are several steps to a Tiger Wrap an extra coat on the guides means nothing to me.
However, as other have said, just pick one and practice.
I have used Minima guides on Float Rods, but like the Microwave's on my spinning rods.
Microwave's will out cast most set-ups and don't have to be finessed or tuned to a specific reel.
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Michael Danek
(---.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 25, 10:00PM
I believe that the 16, 17, 18 mm sizing on reel seats refers to the ID, not the OD. I agree that 16 is too small, and agree that optimum for ergonomics may be 18, but 18 has two things you may want to consider. You are trying to build the lightest rod, I believe, big priority on weight. The 18 will be slightly heavier than the 17. Also, with a very light rod you may think the 18 makes the rod feel a little less "agile" in the hand due to its size. This is all about personal preferences and personal perceptions. I personally would seriously consider the 17.
Unless I'm misinterpreting what you are stating and planning relative to balance, to cut the butt off a blank to make it feel more tip light is exactly the wrong thing to do. There are a lot of different opinions about balance, but I prefer to just make the rod as light as I can and as ergonomically perfect as I can, and not worry about the balance. The traditional way to make a blank feel tip light is to add weight below the reel, but that makes the total rod heavier and in my opinion is counterproductive. Again, personal preferences and perceptions. Before you do any blank cutting tape your rig together and try different reel positions. You most likely will find that before you get that tip light feel you want you will have the butt section so long that it will hang up on your clothing at your elbow.
In my opinion the best way to accomplish having your fingers on the rod blank is to use an uplocking seat. This puts the threads below the reel and out of the way of your fingers that you want on the rod blank. Don't use a front grip at all and either just put a decorative winding check in front of the hood of the reel seat or better yet (for ergonomics/comfort) use a ramp of epoxy or foam covered with epoxy that has just a little smaller O.D. than the front of the hood of the seat. Like this: [clients.criticalimpact.com]
I agree with the suggestion that you practice before starting this rod. Or do an inexpensive rod kit to gain some experience before tackling a project with a pretty expensive blank like the St. Croix SC3.
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
William Minard
(---.client.mchsi.com)
Date: May 25, 10:11PM
I just want to thank you all for checking my thoughts on this, the great words of wisdom and the encouragement, it is very much appreciated. Going to reread your post couple more times.
Joe, man thanks a lot that is very helpful and I never considered wrapping in the reel on a TN handle like that, always used black tape lol. Tying it in would not only look better but be more stable, will have to consider that. I have some decent sized hands 10.5" round the palms, so been picking up rods at the bait shop to see the shape and size I like of the handle. I am not sure if you call it up or down locking but I like the threads towards the butt section.
I was thinking 7.5' might be long as well so really considering cutting it down to 7' to 6'10", thought about building it to 7.5' and seeing if I like it then if not redoing it. You know how light those walleyes can be and smallies this winter were just extra weight on the jig. A rod can be like a real life relationship where you get comfortable with each other and know the subtle ticks others ignore ;).
Chad thanks. I've been soaking up as much as I can from every one here on the forum, walk the paved road as they say.
I already thought of a couple old rods I am going to use as practice for wrapping and finish process.
The static testing has me a little worried I am going to screw it up but been watching vids and reading on here how to do it right.
Garry I had a Fenwick with the VSS handle on it with the threads to the butt of the rod and liked that setup. At lest now I know what 16 and 17mm means on the handles and what I should be looking for.
I was eye balling the Microwave guides but read they are a little heavier then the Minima and the stripper would freeze up in winter, it is a really neat setup though.
I want to thank you all again. I am trying to not go whole hog and off the deep end on my first build by trying to do to much, usually my MO. Going to take it slow.
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Michael Danek
(---.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 25, 10:14PM
Regarding your questions about carbon fiber, the carbon fiber feels a lot more comfortable than one would expect. The smooth surface is not slippery. It is the shape that gives any handle its grip anyway. I use the mid weight Riley foam sleeve; I believe that is the 6 pound. You need not go to what they describe as the heavy duty weight. I really like carbon fiber for fly rods, and with fly rods the grip is very important. It's the only thing your hand contacts, and they work fine. Carbon fiber is lighter than cork and structurally adequate for anything near what you propose.
But I must ask, how much grip are you going to have? With spin, unless you do the Tennessee grip, for a light rod you need nothing more than short ramps off the ends of the reel seat plus a butt knob which is easiest done in cork or one purchased ready-made of whatever material you prefer.
Go to a sporting goods store that has good name brand rods and look at and feel a lot of them before you start your build. You won't find carbon fiber but you should find a lot of variety in how the builders approached the rods near what you plan to build, and that may provide solid direction to your design. Split grip or full grip? Tennessee grip? You might not find one, but maybe you will. Material? No foregrip? Or ramps? Uplocking vs downlocking?
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
William Minard
(---.client.mchsi.com)
Date: May 25, 10:48PM
Hi Michael thank you for the insightful input and let me say that is very beautiful work. That pheasant grip is an absolute work of art.
Yes I am looking for light and sensitive, feel is everything with this type fishing. I have to tell the difference between a rock, mud, sand and fish, where the drop happens to let the jig fall, did I pick up a leaf or did a smallmouth just mouth it, there is that gravel patch in the mud. You know what us fisherman think about and look for.
I was thinking 17 mm after reading the above advice. I tried a rod with no fore grip at the shop but with my hand size my hands were hurting holding the rod in short order. I like the reel seat just like you describe and think a 2.5" long fore grip will allow me to fish hand in front of real and 3 fingers on grip for comfort and then index and thumb on the blank for feel.
I thought about adding weight to the back but like you say it would defeat the purpose. That is why I am looking for light, I can not stand a tip heavy rod. Thought by cutting butt down some would shorten the blank and help balance the weight at the tip with the weight at the back if that makes sense. I picked up the St Croix built 6'9"ML/XF in the shop and liked the feel of it and it seems like the same blank as mine just shorter.
I am very fussy with some things at times. I will mock it up and see how things feel when I get there like you suggest. Working at staying in the kiddie pool so I don't hurt myself to bad, step by step. Thank you and God Bless.
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
William Minard
(---.client.mchsi.com)
Date: May 25, 10:55PM
lol sorry Michael I type so slow you got a second post in before I got one. I am going to pick up some more rods before I make a decision on the handle, going back and forth in my mind to much. Think trying to make my own CF grip is biting off more then what is needed at this time and cork will be just fine like you stated. Curious what kind of foam did you use with the ramps you did there? Thank you again :).
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/ 11:08PM by William Minard.
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Michael Danek
(---.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 26, 08:02AM
The foam I was using then was simply Batson reel seat shims. Since then I have found that the Pac Bay reel seat shim material is more solid, less apt to crack or chip while working it. Another option that is good is the Riley rods foam. Don't underestimate the comfort of these shims. If you make the diameter right they are an extension of the reel seat and very comfortable. You want the initial diameter of the front shim to be about 1/32 smaller than the diameter of the reel seat hood to allow some room for a few layers of epoxy and also, more importantly, to allow easy application of epoxy against the shoulder of the hood. If the ramp gets larger than the hood then you're stuck trying to get epoxy down into the joint without smearing it all over the hood. Another tip is that if you have a drill press you can turn the shims by simply sticking a drill bit into the hole in the center carefully so as to not screw up the alignment, then put the bit into the drill press and machine with sandpaper. Piece of cake. They machine so fast that if anything, you have to be careful of taking off too much material.
When done shaping carefully bore the center taking care to keep the bore and OD concentric.
Keep in mind that for a light duty rod where sensitivity is a high priority, there is no reason for the "foregrip" or "ramp" or whatever you call it to be larger than the reel seat hood, and the foam/epoxy "foregrip/ramps" become rigid extensions of both the reel seat and the blank, so sensitivity is great. They also are so small that weight is not a factor. In fact they are lighter than cork.
Re uplocking vs. downlocking, what you like, the threads below the reel, is uplocking since it drives the reel "up" when tightening the nut.
If you wish to take any of my ideas further and need more tips, feel free to contact me. My address is visible. I like your careful attitude-it will pay off.
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
David Baylor
(---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: May 26, 11:09AM
William, having only built three rods, I'm a newbie as well. As you've already seen, you've come to the right place. Every member here is quite willing to help newbies out. I''d talked to Joe Vanfossen before meeting him at an Ohio Rod Builders gathering earlier this year. and he is extremely helpful, and knows his stuff. As do a lot of members of this site.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the effect on the blanks action if you cut it down. Taking any length off of a rod blank will change its action. It will slow the action regardless of which end you trim. Trimming the tip will increase the power, while slowing the action. Trimming the butt will decrease the power while slowing the action. So before you start cutting, do as has been suggested and tape the reel in different positions on the rod to give you an idea of what your final product will feel like.
I will say that if you have a particular action or power you're looking for, and can't find a blank that will seemingly fit the bill, that trimming a blank is a way to accomplish it. The first two rods I built were both built on longer blanks that I trimmed down. And both were exactly what I was looking for.
As far as reel seat size choice for a spinning rod, I definitely have to defer to the other members. I've only built one spinning rod thus far, so my experience with them is limited to say the least. I will say that when I chose the reel seat size for the spinning rod I just built and one that I am about to build, I simply measured the OD of some of my factory rods. I ended up going with a 17 mm reel seat. Although if after building this next spinning rod (I already have the components) I may go to an 18 mm seat if I build another spinning rod.
I made the reel seat down locking because one, I liked the looks of it better, and two, like Garry, I didn't want my hand resting on threads. If you like the idea of an up locking reel seat, but not the idea of the butt of your hand resting on the nut and thread barrel, an alternative may be using one of the Fuji fore grips that are designed to cover the nut and thread barrel, as a rear grip. You may think it's too short, but you really don't need a long rear grip on a spinning rod, unless you want one. Your hand position while holding a spinning rod is over the reel. For instance, on the rod I just completed, my rear grip is only 2 1/4" long. Just something to think about.
As far as grip type and grip material goes, I wanted a light rod as well, so I went with a split rear grip, and used EVA foam for my fore grip, rear grip, and fighting butt, I understand the advantage of no fore grip, but I haven't gotten their yet from an aesthetics standpoint, so I made fore grip on this last rod 3/4" long. Knowing the reel I'll be using on the rod, I trimmed the thread barrel's length down to bring the fore grip closer, and make it easier for my finger tip to reach the blank ahead of the fore grip. If you'll be changing reels on the rod, different reel may have a larger reel foot, so trimming the thread barrel may not be something you'll want to do. But it is a way to decrease the overall length of your reel seat.
As I mentioned earlier, the rear grip of the spinning rod I just did, I made 2 1/4" long. It fits my hand perfectly, but may not fit others. The nice thing about building your own rod for you, is that you can make it fit you. The fighting butt is also EVA foam that I cut down in length so it would show more of the rod blank between the rear grip and butt grip.
You mention wanting a balanced rod, and while you may not always need a balanced rod for every technique, I personally think that with finesse techniques, a balanced rod is very important. One thing you definitely don't want is a tip heavy rod for finesse techniques. Tip heavy rods decrease feel, and add stress to your forearm. I personally would want a balanced rod at the expense of the rod being heavier over all, than a lighter over all rod, that was tip heavy. I'd try to balance the rod if I could. Either through the use of anodized aluminum trim rings from the reel seat on back to the butt, or through possibly epoxying something into the butt of the blank before putting on the butt cap. Forecast also makes a sweet anodized butt cap that would add some weight, if other things aren't an option.
And as many have already mentioned, and you've acknowledged ....... practice. Some of the problems I've ran into are things you may want to watch out for. If you're like me, and you've already said that you're particular, so you are like me lol, you'll probably find yourself doting over each wrap, which is understandable ... but don't dote too much. Apply a light first coat, making sure the thread is covered and move on to the next one. Don't worry about finish edges on the blank being uneven or perhaps wider than you'd like. You can come back and clean those up with a folded paper towel soaked with denatured alcohol, after all the wraps are coated.
Fight the urge to go back and touch up a wrap unless it really needs touching up. And if it does, be sure to check the viscosity of your finish in your cup or that you've poured onto a piece of glass. If it's thickening, beware. The increased surface tension of thickening finish can and probably will, trap air bubbles in your finish.
If you notice a little nub or fuzzy while putting on your first coat, don't try to fix it immediately. Let the first coat dry and then trim it with a razor blade. Unless it's really bad, your second coat will cover it, and you'll likely not know it was ever there.. Get a burnishing tool. I used a popsicle stick as a burnishing tool on the first two rods I built. A popsicle stick is NOT a burnishing tool. lol This last rod I built I used an actual burnishing tool and my wraps came out much better.
And since I have gone on and on yet again, finally I'll say ... watch the temperature of your finishing room. If it's too cold your finish will be thick and it could result in trapping air bubbles, and it it's too hot it will cause your finish to set up too quick, and it will trap air bubbles as well. Oh and watch the dust in your finishing room as well. I'm still trying to iron out the temperature and dust conditions of my finishing room. I do all of my finishing in an spare bedroom upstairs. Controlling the temperature as the days get warmer has been a challenge.
Anyhow ..... as I said at the very beginning of this novel....... you've come to the right place.
These guys are a wealth of information and are more than willing to help newbies. They're awesome people to be sure.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/ 11:12AM by David Baylor.
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
Michael Danek
(---.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 27, 03:50PM
Lots of good advice David. I'd like to add a reason for having more than a couple inches from the reel seat to the butt of the rod. The right dimension on the distance from the reel post to the butt will facilitate two handed casting without hanging up on clothing while raising and lowering the rod. The longer this dimension is the more it will defeat the tip-heavy feel that appears to be a high priority. BUT, if it gets too long hanging up on clothing will be a problem. I had to cut about 1 1/2 inches of a St Croix SCV one time, and that did not make me happy. But the rod fishes well now. (For me).
Options: Reply•Quote
Re: Newbie Questions
Posted by:
William Minard
(---.client.mchsi.com)
Date: May 27, 10:20PM
Michael thank you very that is very kind of you. I have read your link couple times so far, definitely considering this option and going to research it some more.
David I appreciate you sharing your experience, that is very helpful. I don't mind "novels" at all my friend, the more input you get the more you learn, we have 2 eyes, 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason.
Honestly dust never even crossed my mind and plan to build in a spare room as well so will see how it works. Funny I thought about using a popsicle stick myself, an excuse to eat more real fruit strawberry ones lol. Yes I am a doter and have a tad bit of OCD or anal retention disorder as my sister tells me but I am telling myself looks do not have to be perfect for the first one as long as it fishes well.
The friendliness and willingness to help out a fellow angler here is unmatched from what I have witnessed on forums, so thank you all very much. Looking forward to sharing some pictures when I get to that place and probably will have some more questions along the way.
Options: Reply•Quote